This story was printed in the February 2, 1846 issue of The Republican Compiler of Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, concerning an incident which occurred between the Russian Czar and some Jewish sailors. Impressed with a demonstration of their skill, he immediately promoted them. The trouble is, he was reminded, that there was a ukase (imperial decree) forbidding Jews from wearing epaulettes. The Czar's solution was that they should convert to Greek Orthodoxy. Upon hearing this, and seeing no way out, the two sailors asked to be allowed to show some more of their skills. Permission granted, they ascended the mast of their ship, embraced and jumped into the water.
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Wow! Great find! Sad but inspirational.
ReplyDeleteInspirational?
ReplyDeleteIn a "Ballad of Motke and Yoske" sense, I guess.
ReplyDeleteGreek Orthodoxy?
ReplyDeleteNot inspirational?
ReplyDeleteI don't know what you mean by that. (Seriously.) Do you mean this is an example to follow, killing oneself in protest rather than forgo promotion?
ReplyDeleteConversion, you mean?
ReplyDeleteForgoing promotion. They didn't say convert or we'll kill you, and even that is a difficult halachic matter.
ReplyDeleteDo you think they could forgo promotion when it was recommended by the Czar?
ReplyDeleteProbably. Do you think they'd actually be killed if the declined? And is klling oneself the same as letting oneself be killed, provided the conversion would halachically be a case of AZ that fell under the law?
ReplyDeleteI think they'd have been severely punished at the least.
ReplyDeleteDon't know. So, back to my question then - where's the inspirational part? Does this inspire one to commit suicide rather than a prison sentence?
ReplyDeleteThe Russian Czar in the first half of the 1800s? Would probably have been death. At the least, as strong a possibility of that as anything else.
ReplyDeleteMy q is, do we have other coroboration of this incident? Sounds similar to the talmudic account of the youths jumping off the ship to avoid being used for sin, and also like the beis yankov story about the girls acting similiarly for simialr reasons.
Death? How do you know? Not that I'd completely rule this out, but have you any hints for that?
ReplyDeleteAnyway, since when is the chance of being killed a legitimate reason for suicide?
I don't know either, but it seems that these 2 Jews did - they must have known that they would surely die for defying Nicholas I ימ"ש, a known anti-Semite, or else otherwise be forced to convert without means of escape. When the death or no escape from committing the sin is certain, it seems that suicide is the same letting yourself be killed - see the story of the four captives and the wife of R' Moshe.
ReplyDeleteIt inspires me and should all Jews - as it is considered honorable to die Al Kiddush Hashem - and great Talmidei Hachamim longed to die such a death - even if it seems anathema to Western values.
Interesting.
Delete"Anyway, since when is the chance of being killed a legitimate reason for suicide?"
ReplyDeleteThere's a lot of literature on this. King Saul, Sampson, etc. There are classical talmudic passages directly on point.
Being tortured to worship idols, you mean? Not the same. Also, you don't lern haloche straight from the gemore.
DeleteKing Saul wasn't being tortured to worship idols, simply under (almost) certainty of being killed by the Philistines in a battle.
DeleteYou pasken from a posuk now?
DeleteLipman
ReplyDeleteAs a card carrying chabadnick I've heard this story as a child, with the preface that the Tzemach Tzedek when he visited Petersburg in 1843 said two ma'amorim for the cantonists. He also spoke with them and told them that not to convert requires mesiras nefesh.
As for your doubts as to what options they had, I guess you are confusing 21st century America with 19th century czarist Russia. There were no options. As for suicide to prevent conversion it is an old ashkenazi tradition dating back to the crusades, and in their memory we say av harachamim every shabbos.
You can't know that, of course, but I know a bit about 19th ct Russia (and about 21st ct America). Also, the Ashkenazic suicide tradition is all but clear, and all but without halachic controversy. Lastly, not every martyr is a suicide (and we say Av horachamim twice a year, or six times for those who are Eastern enough to say yizker).
ReplyDeleteS., we expect better of you... 'ליגינדה הקרובה לאמת'.
ReplyDeleteAnd Lipman, I don't know what your chinuch was, but this tale and its moral are rather well-known and uncontroversial in Chasidic and Yeshiva communities where traditional Jewish chinuch is still practiced. I would also love to learn of any pre-Holocaust instance in which the Ashkenazic suicide tradition isn't clear. A particularly fascinating case I'm familiar with is cited by Urbach in The Tosaphots where a certain Yom Tov, the son of R. Moshe of London, committed suicide because "השד היה מראה לפניו בשתי וערב ודחק אותו לעבוד עבודה זרה"(!!).
And Mendel, the source you're thinking of is סה"ש קיץ הש"ת עמ' 134 (volume unfortunately missing on hebrewbooks.org).
I didn't claim it wasn't well-known. In fact, I didn't even claim it wasn't true. (It probably isn't.)
DeleteYou can't seriously claim Chasidic and Yeshiva communities or other modern reform movements with Jewish roots have much to do with traditional chinuch.
The case you quote is from the 13th ct and I don't see it declared lawful by the poskem.
a) Jacob Lipschitz says it's probably true. You say it probably isn't. Interesting. In any case, you expressed or feigned utter incomprehension as to the meaning and significance of, to my mind (and everyone else's), a pretty well-known, self-evident story.
Deleteb) Much to do?! Certainly there is the influence of Americanism to varying degrees, and certainly agendas like pan-haredism or anti-zionism or anti-fill-in-the-blank play some role, but these groups undoubtedly have much to do with traditional chinuch in terms of pedantics, didactics and messaging (my ballpark estimate of Brooklyn right-wing yeshivos: Satmar 80%-20% traditionalistic, Generic Chasidic - 70%-30%, Chabad 60%-40%, Yeshivish 50%-50%). In the case of Kiddush-Hashem-assisted suicide, I can think of no reason why Americanism or Modern Haredism would lead everyone to awake one morning and pretend that suicide in such a context would be the norm. I can only wonder whether Americanism is influencing your thinking.
c) I briefly googled the subject yesterday; it seems that Tanach, Shas and Rishonim all seem to indicate this behavior is okay if not recommended. The Maharshal dissents. That's a far cry from a controversy. In fact, I'm still unaware of a single known instance in which pious Jews, when facing a choice between suicide and forced conversion to Christianity, opted for conversion. Your contribution is welcome.
d) The instance I cited isn't necessarily indicative of a consensus of Poskim; it is indicative of reality (both of the suicide and of its acceptance by the community); it's also remarkable for the nature of the incident (voices in the fellow's own head). It's certainly as fascinating as advertised.
" In fact, I'm still unaware of a single known instance in which pious Jews, when facing a choice between suicide and forced conversion to Christianity, opted for conversion. Your contribution is welcome."
DeleteNot that you are necessarily wrong, but isn't this the No True Scotsman fallacy? Plenty of Jews converted when forced, and many of them reverted back (teshuva) when they had the chance. Do you know they were all not pious? Or are you defining piety as only giving up life rather than submit to forced conversion?
By 'pious' I meant that the Jews in question would have acknowledged if asked that they converted not out of personal weakness, but in an attempt to best fulfill God's wishes as revealed through Jewish law and practice. R. Yosef Yaavetz famously asserted that those Spanish Jews who converted did so out of religious laxity wrought by enlightenment. But for simplicity's sake, any famous Ashkenazic community, or a group including a well-regarded scholar would do. Maybe this exists; discussing a specific case (to contrast the one I mentioned previously) is definitely preferable to generalities.
DeleteLipman
ReplyDeleteI would suggest that the fact that the kinos of tisha b'av mention suicide approvingly (in the kina about the german kehillos)serve as some sort of halachic/moral sanction. IIRC there were stories of suicide to prevent conversion during tach v'tat (chmelnitzky) that were repeated approvingly. It's halachic permissibility can be debated but I propose that the average Eastern European Jew, including the lamdanim considered it laudable.
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