Actually, this is interesting, because somehow everyone seem to know the rule for ח. In fact, I have a very clear memory of my rebbe teaching this rule to rows of us doe-eyed toddlers. Our אלף בינה had numerous examples to practice; מצמיח ,משיח etc. But nothing about the others. I can only assume that my rebbe didn't know it himself, which would not make him unusual. As a result, every month בעלי תפילה show if they do or do not know the rule as they publicly read בצאת ישראל ממצרים. It is especially funny when such prayer-leaders emphatically pronounce the
Obviously this is a symptom of the didkuk neglect of centuries (at least among Ashkenazim), often lamented, rarely rectified. The question is why this rule is only partially known. My guess is because of the three letters, only the ח is emphatically pronounced. Indeed, if Ashkenazim didn't pronounce the ח like the כ, but more like it's true Oriental consonantal sound partway between ה and ח, they'd probably have developed the pronunciation Moshihha!
In fairness to BMG, the name it's stuck with on its stationary and in it's legal filings don't reflect the dikduk knowledge or lack of on the part of anyone in particular. Although I'm not aware of any evidence that R. Aharon Kotler was a medakek in his pronunciation, certainly he knew the פתח גנובה. He had nothing to do with how the name is written in English; besides, if we're getting pedantic "Medrash" is misspelled too. Still, this is amusing, or at the very least, a perfect foil for my observation about why only a part of this rule seems widely known.
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And what about the sefardi pronunciation, which is more complicated than a patach aleph? mashiyach, mizbeyach, nowach, etc...
ReplyDeleteRegular Ashkenazim may butcher didkuk more, but the best grammarians after the period of al-Andalus were Ashkenazim.
ReplyDeleteSomething got cut off here:
ReplyDelete"It is especially funny when such prayer-leaders emphatically pronounce the "
--Phil
It happens during the refrain of 'al cheyt' as well - God's Name ends up sounding like a Hawaiian greeting.
ReplyDeleteLion of Zion & Dan Klein, who knows their dikduk are a good friends. My son's Bar-Mitzvah is two years away, and I'm nervous to see the Dan & Lion grimace as my son Yeshiva-pronounces the Birchat Yaakov (or as I say it BirchaS Yaakov) vs. Mrs. LFD. who has a sefardi accent with ashkenazic overtones. Maybe you can help write his Bar Mitzvah speech. We could show how much the Birchat Yaakov could be messed up when pronounced incorrectly. Fun post, thanks!
ReplyDeletei don't think it would matter if Ashkenazim pronounced ח as /ħ/ instead of /x/ — what matters is that we pronounce it at all, unlike the completely silent ע and (colloquial, at least) final ה even with mapiḳ.
ReplyDelete? Many people pronounce it, e.g., "eloha." I've even heard chachomim pronounce it with a mappik - "elohaH." That is, they are pronouncing the heh.
ReplyDeleteSo, it looks like you took this one seriously. :)
ReplyDeleteI mean, "In fairness to BMG"?
Do you really think they have a FB team?
Oy, we really need Moshichah!
Oy, Yosef. "Beth Medrash Govoha" is how the yeshiva is officially called and spelled in English, do a dns lookup for BMG.EDU, and also google "Beth Medrash Govoha."
ReplyDeleteI did a cursory search for a letter on official stationary and couldn't find one, but I've no doubt whatsoever that "Beth Medrash Govoha" is on it.
Of course the college wear is a joke (or automatically generated).
Heh. I missed it.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure why, but I was sure they spell it Midrash.
BMG is not the only Jewish institution with a dikduk error preserved in its name. My shul is officially called "Beth Hakneses Hachodosh." Besides the inconsistency of the "th" and "s" endings of the first two words, the third word should be "Hechodosh." But it's been the other way for more than 100 years (and thus "chodosh" itself is a misnomer).
ReplyDeleteLakewood FD: you know I have too much love and regard for your boy to criticize his pronunciation, at least openly. I'll try to control the grimacing, no matter how poorly he may have been educated.
And let us not forget this post: http://mis-dakdek.blogspot.com/2005/11/this-has-been-pointed-out-periodically.html
ReplyDeleteS - What about the example of an ayin + patach at the end of a word as a patach genuva?
ReplyDeleteלשמוע אל הרנה ואל התפלה
ReplyDeleteSo does the patach genuvah rule also include ayin + patach, along with aleph, heh, and chet?
ReplyDeleteYeah; I typed this post out on a tiny netbook, and had to do a lot of cut and pasting to get Hebrew letters in, so hopefully you'll excuse my errors! It includes אהחע, that is, the guttural consonants.
ReplyDelete"do a dns lookup for BMG.EDU"
ReplyDeleteYou mean a whois query. Hey, some of us are pedantic about things other than grammar. ;-)
Funny, I almost wrote "whois" but I somehow thought that was too un-technical and changed it. Yes, I do know who.
ReplyDeleteS:
ReplyDeleteshame on you. why would you expect BMG to take notice of פתח גנובה? it is a relatively late development in hebrew evolution (or so the theory goes) and you know very well that BMG does not hold from any modernishe nonsense.
and since mapik heh has been mentioned above, i will mention that i am amused by all the shuls that have a minhag to repeat zecher/zeicher (which does not change the meaning, is not a correcable mistake and is based on a mistaken mesorah), yet only two words earlier they ignore a mapik heh (more here: http://agmk.blogspot.com/2009/03/women-reading-parshat-zachor-and-mappik.html).
LAKEWOOD FALLING DOWN:
ReplyDeletei never grimace at proper ashkenazi pronounciation. certainly not from your kind-hearted son.
just make sure you get pomegranate cold cuts for the kiddush and don't make me walk too far.
S:
ReplyDeletethere is a whole history of funny transliterations of shuls, schools, etc.
e.g., אנשי מערב in chicago that became anshe mayriv (too lazy to come for שחרית?)
the other day i was looking at the publication of a mid-19th c. hospital and i couldn't even figure out what the hebrew was supposed to be.
Lakewood Falling Down,
ReplyDeleteIt's Birkat. The Kaf has a dagesh. I cringed every time I heard BirKHas HaChama.
Another Dikduk mistake that I notice is ignorance of the construct state. For example: Shalom becomes Shlom in phrases like Shlom Bayit.
I don't think there are any example of aleph with a patach genuva. Only החע
ReplyDeleteHow is alef with unvoiced shva pronounced? Is it like the Arabic hamza?
ReplyDeleteI don't know anything about arabic, but an aleph with an unvoiced shva is pronounced as a glottal stop, as in the middle of "uh-uh"
ReplyDeleteIn fairness to BMG, the name it's stuck with on its stationary and in it's legal filings don't reflect the dikduk knowledge or lack of on the part of anyone in particular.
ReplyDeleteBRILLIANT.
Come again?
ReplyDeleteIf you're alluding to my own spelling mistakes and/ or grammatical deficiencies in English, blog posts are ephemeral.
MDJ,
ReplyDeleteThanks. What about Alef at the end of a word (were shva isn't usually WRITTEN)?
What about word final He (without Mapik)?
So, the correct pronunciation of Mars in Hebrew is (using ? to represent the glottal stop) is Ma?dim ?
ReplyDeleteNu, we all make mistakes.
ReplyDeleteVe'al kulom, (....) selach lonu, mechal lonu, kaper lonu.
Yochanan,
ReplyDelete1) Aleph and heh-with-mapik at the end of a word are always imot hakriah and not pronounced.
2) Is there a shva under the aleph? Anyway, I should point out that I'm sure the glottal stop is left out by Israeli's in spoken hebrew just as it is by everyone else unless they are leining and aer particlarly punctilious
In Washington Heights for many years resided a German Rov called Rav Breslauer (father of the Rov in Monsey). He knew his dikduk well, and being a yekke was upset at the mistake BMG has on its stationary and building with the writing of Govoha. He advised R' Shneur zt"l to correct the writing and offered to pay the costs of the changes but R'Shneur declined the offer.
ReplyDelete