Here is a fantastically witty and interesting article about cholent and kugel from 1889. Since it mentions Heine and Boerne's take on it, here's a link to my earlier post on Heine on cholent (link). Jewish Messenger July 5, 1889.
From the description, ganef is the name people of the author's ethnicity gave to kishke that is cooked together with the cholent. As he says, the reason is because it steals the flavours of the other cholent ingredients. His "cugl" seems to be the same kishke, cooked separately.
For crying out loud. It was bad enough when I discovered the Sodom bed thing was a knockoff of the Procustean bed. Now I learn the Yosef Mikor Shabbos thing is a knockoff of Polycrates. Is nothing sacred?
On the other hand, the stories might have been invented independently. He mentions here something about a story in Don Quixote, about a lawsuit and money in a bag, being in the Talmud. I dont know Cervantes at all, is he referring to the Kanya D'Rava episode? [guy swears he already repaid creditor, when money was in the cane he asked creditor to hold while he swore.]
Some nasty spam in comment above me, agav. Efsher delete it.
Or Yosef Mokir Shabbos is a true story, and Herodotus used it for his story about Polycrates. Similarly, the Greek myth of Procrustes may have been based on the true story of Sedom.
Herodotus lived in the 5th century BCE, so clearly not. Also, the Jews did not have a written literature apart for the 24 books of Tanakh, so where did the Greeks get a story (in the 6th century BCE, or even earlier, centuries before they had contact with the Jews) about Sodom from?
What makes you think Yosef Mokir Shabbos was after the 5th Century BCE? No date is given for him, so he could easily have been earlier, and Herodotus could have heard his story and reused it.
And Sedom's destruction was a pretty important event; there's no reason the Greeks would not have heard of it. Amim Har Yikra'u, so they could even have heard of it in EY.
I'm sure you've thought of this, but I thought I'd "speak it out" for the benefit of those who might not have. Many classical meforshim do not see agad'ta as history at all--they see it as clothing an idea in a story ("parable", b'laaz), sometimes by using wild exaggeration, sometimes by using specific catchphrases, etc. Why should we doubt that these were popular stories? The point is not the historicity of them, rather the fact that the Sages saw fit to characterize Sodom this way. R. S.R. Hirsch, if you want one reference of many, says as much concerning the agad'ta on one's spine turning into a snake--the Sages took a popular notion from Pliny and used it to make a point.
Thanks, DD. Yes, I do know that approach, and clearly much of aggadah is not historically true. But it's still jarring when one learns that beloved stories and midrashim clearly come from external sources. [Sorry Milhouse, I'm not buying it.] I was also going to mention Dan's exposure on Seforim blog of the dreidel as just a knockoff of the teetotum. No Neis, no godol, no hoyoh, no shom.
Oh, yeah. I know the feeling. Ech, what can you do. It's part of growing up. Unfortunately, in our educational system midrashim are only treated "seriously" for children, as interesting stories that inspire and arouse, and never again dealt with for mature audiences (except in a rather puerile way).
Two patches: a patch for me for typing "classical" for "classic." Now that was jarring. A second patch for not having provided the location of that comment by R. Hirsch--it is in his first letter to R. Hile Wechsler, now in Feldheim Volume IX of the Collected Writings, and available somewhere online in PDF. Yes, that one. By the way, my respect to Feldheim for having published that with no apologies.
One oughtn't do this kind of thing, but... not having read Dan's post, I just can't help putting in my own guess as to the nun, gimel, shin, hey: Nem, gornisht, shtel, halb. Carry on...
Hello! Would you mind if I share your blog with my twitter group? There's a lot of folks that I think would really enjoy your content. Please let me know. Thank you
Great articles on cholent, kugel, etc. (this one and the previous one about Heine). I have incorporated both in my webpage on songs about Ashkenazi foods: www.jewishfolksongs.com/en/Ashkenazi-food.
Gosh, this parody needs a pirush!
ReplyDeleteWell, it's pretty obvious - the meshumed (apostate) misses the taste of home, having left Judaism and its foodways behind.
Delete"Ganef" is a Jewish food?!!!
ReplyDeleteFrom the description, ganef is the name people of the author's ethnicity gave to kishke that is cooked together with the cholent. As he says, the reason is because it steals the flavours of the other cholent ingredients. His "cugl" seems to be the same kishke, cooked separately.
DeleteVery cute.
ReplyDelete...to understand them one must be a scholar, to describe them a genius, to eat them with devotion a Jew, but to appreciate them a Meshumed.
What a great line!
It is a great line. Does this mean the author is a meshumed?
DeleteI don't think so.
DeleteFor crying out loud. It was bad enough when I discovered the Sodom bed thing was a knockoff of the Procustean bed. Now I learn the Yosef Mikor Shabbos thing is a knockoff of Polycrates. Is nothing sacred?
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, the stories might have been invented independently. He mentions here something about a story in Don Quixote, about a lawsuit and money in a bag, being in the Talmud. I dont know Cervantes at all, is he referring to the Kanya D'Rava episode? [guy swears he already repaid creditor, when money was in the cane he asked creditor to hold while he swore.]
Some nasty spam in comment above me, agav. Efsher delete it.
Or Yosef Mokir Shabbos is a true story, and Herodotus used it for his story about Polycrates. Similarly, the Greek myth of Procrustes may have been based on the true story of Sedom.
DeleteHerodotus lived in the 5th century BCE, so clearly not. Also, the Jews did not have a written literature apart for the 24 books of Tanakh, so where did the Greeks get a story (in the 6th century BCE, or even earlier, centuries before they had contact with the Jews) about Sodom from?
DeleteWhat makes you think Yosef Mokir Shabbos was after the 5th Century BCE? No date is given for him, so he could easily have been earlier, and Herodotus could have heard his story and reused it.
DeleteAnd Sedom's destruction was a pretty important event; there's no reason the Greeks would not have heard of it. Amim Har Yikra'u, so they could even have heard of it in EY.
DF,
DeleteI'm sure you've thought of this, but I thought I'd "speak it out" for the benefit of those who might not have. Many classical meforshim do not see agad'ta as history at all--they see it as clothing an idea in a story ("parable", b'laaz), sometimes by using wild exaggeration, sometimes by using specific catchphrases, etc. Why should we doubt that these were popular stories? The point is not the historicity of them, rather the fact that the Sages saw fit to characterize Sodom this way. R. S.R. Hirsch, if you want one reference of many, says as much concerning the agad'ta on one's spine turning into a snake--the Sages took a popular notion from Pliny and used it to make a point.
Thanks, DD. Yes, I do know that approach, and clearly much of aggadah is not historically true. But it's still jarring when one learns that beloved stories and midrashim clearly come from external sources. [Sorry Milhouse, I'm not buying it.] I was also going to mention Dan's exposure on Seforim blog of the dreidel as just a knockoff of the teetotum. No Neis, no godol, no hoyoh, no shom.
DeleteOh, yeah. I know the feeling. Ech, what can you do. It's part of growing up. Unfortunately, in our educational system midrashim are only treated "seriously" for children, as interesting stories that inspire and arouse, and never again dealt with for mature audiences (except in a rather puerile way).
DeleteTwo patches: a patch for me for typing "classical" for "classic." Now that was jarring. A second patch for not having provided the location of that comment by R. Hirsch--it is in his first letter to R. Hile Wechsler, now in Feldheim Volume IX of the Collected Writings, and available somewhere online in PDF. Yes, that one. By the way, my respect to Feldheim for having published that with no apologies.
One oughtn't do this kind of thing, but... not having read Dan's post, I just can't help putting in my own guess as to the nun, gimel, shin, hey: Nem, gornisht, shtel, halb. Carry on...
Hello! Would you mind if I share your blog with
ReplyDeletemy twitter group? There's a lot of folks that I think would really enjoy your content. Please let me know. Thank you
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Great articles on cholent, kugel, etc. (this one and the previous one about Heine). I have incorporated both in my webpage on songs about Ashkenazi foods: www.jewishfolksongs.com/en/Ashkenazi-food.
ReplyDeleteBatya
Agreed
ReplyDelete