Or just modern. The modern Orthodox also didn't care for the fur hats and the Talmudic drashos and all that; why do you think rabbis like Hirsch were invented?
Also, the Jewish Chronicle opposed Reform. Not that this is proof, but it seems suggestive as to who would choose to write them.
I have a sort of hunch that this is Leopold Dukes writing, but of course that's a needle in a haystack.
I wonder if the music reference is to RSRH attending concerts or playing the flute (which Mordechai Breuer says he did according to a family tradition).
I find it interesting that this item of all of them elicited the (!!) marker of shock/surprise.
In any case, I remember coming across another source one time which noted the stylistic contrast between Rav Hirsch and his predecessor Chief Rabbi of Nichlolsburg/ Moravia, R. Mordechai Banet (albeit the latter had been deceased for over 15 years at that point). R. Banet's son, by the way, was opposed to Hirsch's appointment (instead of, say, him). He was also opposed by others of the old school. This "can't get over it", I assume, positive reaction stands in contrast to the negative reaction his appointment did elicit from some in the old school.
Reminds me of the mission statement of the IRG Frankfurt kehillah that would later hire RSRH. According to the excerpt quoted in Liberles's book on Frankfurt, the mission statement opened with something along the lines of "we will be halakhic, but we must keep fully in line with the prevailing spirit that contemporary times demand." I read the line out of context to friends and they thought it came from the mission statement of a certain cutting-edge left shul of today.
I'm not sure, but in this book (six lines from the top) we can see that a "מגידות דרשה" was something, as it quotes the Chasam Sofer referring to it. Perhaps it is simply the type of sermon that maggidim were accustomed, in Central Europe, to give.
Conducting weddings "within the synagogue" is a practice that continues to be controversial in some quarters to this day.
Another RSRH habit that reportedly raised eyebrows was taking a stroll with his wife. According to family lore, when someone called him on this, he said, "Well then, who should walk with her -- you?"
For an explanation of the term Halacha Tosafos ("Halachah Thosphoth" above) in the post, see the fine work on the Yeshiva Harama of Feurth by Rav Binyomin Shlomo Hamburger (Machon Moreshes Ashkenaz, Bnei Brak, 5770), volume III, in the section starting at p.131.
I see that Rabbi Hamburger quoted the little bit on maggidus drasha from אלה תולדות, which I linked to above, in his sefer on the Chasam Sofer. I was only able to see a snippet on Google Books. Anyone know if Rabbi Hamburger footnotes this term to explain it?
The first commenter took the words right out of my mouth. Looks like he was just as much a reformer as A. Geiger & Co., only in a different direction. No chiddush, really. The Yeshivahs also reformed halacha, dropped piyutim and yoitzros that THEY didnt like, and invented new customs. And yet they tell anyone who'll listen that only they are authentic judaism. What a geleichter.
You're kidding! This is the full article. It's simply an excerpt from the page. I just kept the little bit to the side to show the title, that it's from the Jewish Chronicle. The rest is boring 1840s European Jewish news.
There is an excellent article describing the reception of RSRH in Moravia.
Gertrude Hirschler, 'Rabbi and Statesman: Samson Raphael Hirsch, Landesrabbiner of Moravia (1847–1851), in Review of the Society for the History of Czechoslovak Jews 1 (1987), pp. 121–-48
Unknown, funny that you should mention yoitzros and piyutim -- that's one thing that Rav Hirsch did keep, and is preserved by his community (KAJ, now in Washington Heights) to this day -- in contradistinction to the Yeshivish "Litvish" communities.
I recall that Noah Rosenblum, in his interesting book on SRH, alleges that SRH went to Frankfurt in desperation, because he had been virtually driven out of Moravia. Acc to NR, he was never accepted there. Much in the spirit of the JC report, the locals used to say (follows is paraphrase of the German) "we used to learn Talmud and say Tehillim; now we say Talmud and learn Tehillim".
The Yekkes have been very Lakewoodized. At the Hirsch anniversary back in 2008, it was declared that Tora 'Im Derekh Eretz doesn't apply to today's times.
Yes, but that statement was not universally accepted and caused a nasty rift in the community. Not sure how it's being dealt with 4 years later. In any case, many who still profess belief in T.I.D.E. have been giving it a narrow reading.
Sounds like a Reformer.
ReplyDeleteLOL@the name.
ReplyDeleteOr just modern. The modern Orthodox also didn't care for the fur hats and the Talmudic drashos and all that; why do you think rabbis like Hirsch were invented?
Also, the Jewish Chronicle opposed Reform. Not that this is proof, but it seems suggestive as to who would choose to write them.
I have a sort of hunch that this is Leopold Dukes writing, but of course that's a needle in a haystack.
I wonder if the music reference is to RSRH attending concerts or playing the flute (which Mordechai Breuer says he did according to a family tradition).
ReplyDeleteI find it interesting that this item of all of them elicited the (!!) marker of shock/surprise.
DeleteIn any case, I remember coming across another source one time which noted the stylistic contrast between Rav Hirsch and his predecessor Chief Rabbi of Nichlolsburg/ Moravia, R. Mordechai Banet (albeit the latter had been deceased for over 15 years at that point). R. Banet's son, by the way, was opposed to Hirsch's appointment (instead of, say, him). He was also opposed by others of the old school. This "can't get over it", I assume, positive reaction stands in contrast to the negative reaction his appointment did elicit from some in the old school.
Reminds me of the mission statement of the IRG Frankfurt kehillah that would later hire RSRH. According to the excerpt quoted in Liberles's book on Frankfurt, the mission statement opened with something along the lines of "we will be halakhic, but we must keep fully in line with the prevailing spirit that contemporary times demand." I read the line out of context to friends and they thought it came from the mission statement of a certain cutting-edge left shul of today.
ReplyDeleteWhat's the 'mystical sermon' that it mentions?
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure, but in this book (six lines from the top) we can see that a "מגידות דרשה" was something, as it quotes the Chasam Sofer referring to it. Perhaps it is simply the type of sermon that maggidim were accustomed, in Central Europe, to give.
ReplyDeleteConducting weddings "within the synagogue" is a practice that continues to be controversial in some quarters to this day.
ReplyDeleteAnother RSRH habit that reportedly raised eyebrows was taking a stroll with his wife. According to family lore, when someone called him on this, he said, "Well then, who should walk with her -- you?"
For an explanation of the term Halacha Tosafos ("Halachah Thosphoth" above) in the post, see the fine work on the Yeshiva Harama of Feurth by Rav Binyomin Shlomo Hamburger (Machon Moreshes Ashkenaz, Bnei Brak, 5770), volume III, in the section starting at p.131.
ReplyDeleteI see that Rabbi Hamburger quoted the little bit on maggidus drasha from אלה תולדות, which I linked to above, in his sefer on the Chasam Sofer. I was only able to see a snippet on Google Books. Anyone know if Rabbi Hamburger footnotes this term to explain it?
DeleteMind you, I live on Bennett Avenue, Washington Heights. Hence the fear.
ReplyDeleteThe first commenter took the words right out of my mouth. Looks like he was just as much a reformer as A. Geiger & Co., only in a different direction. No chiddush, really. The Yeshivahs also reformed halacha, dropped piyutim and yoitzros that THEY didnt like, and invented new customs. And yet they tell anyone who'll listen that only they are authentic judaism. What a geleichter.
ReplyDeleteGershon Pickles.
Please show the full article, are you starting to censor your treasures?
ReplyDeleteYou're kidding! This is the full article. It's simply an excerpt from the page. I just kept the little bit to the side to show the title, that it's from the Jewish Chronicle. The rest is boring 1840s European Jewish news.
ReplyDeleteThere is an excellent article describing the reception of RSRH in Moravia.
ReplyDeleteGertrude Hirschler, 'Rabbi and Statesman: Samson Raphael Hirsch, Landesrabbiner of Moravia (1847–1851), in Review of the Society for the History of Czechoslovak Jews 1 (1987), pp. 121–-48
I can't find it online...
Unknown, funny that you should mention yoitzros and piyutim -- that's one thing that Rav Hirsch did keep, and is preserved by his community (KAJ, now in Washington Heights) to this day -- in contradistinction to the Yeshivish "Litvish" communities.
ReplyDeleteRemember, though, RSRH only lasted in Moravia for four years.
ReplyDeleteRSRH has a teshuvah justifying his practice to perform weddings in synagogues.
Lawrence Kaplan
I recall that Noah Rosenblum, in his interesting book on SRH, alleges that SRH went to Frankfurt in desperation, because he had been virtually driven out of Moravia. Acc to NR, he was never accepted there. Much in the spirit of the JC report, the locals used to say (follows is paraphrase of the German) "we used to learn Talmud and say Tehillim; now we say Talmud and learn Tehillim".
ReplyDeletewhat about the "reading the marriage service within the synagogue" ? is that not against the Takonas of the Hugarian Tielung?
ReplyDeleteThis is before that.
ReplyDeleteShows that Yekkes are really modern orthodox and fit in very well with their neighbors a few blocks away (YU), ragardless of their protestations.
ReplyDeleteThe Yekkes have been very Lakewoodized. At the Hirsch anniversary back in 2008, it was declared that Tora 'Im Derekh Eretz doesn't apply to today's times.
DeleteYes, but that statement was not universally accepted and caused a nasty rift in the community. Not sure how it's being dealt with 4 years later. In any case, many who still profess belief in T.I.D.E. have been giving it a narrow reading.
ReplyDelete