Why does Anschel = Amschel? what is the source of Anschel? Reb Anschel doesn't look like the chassidisher yid he seems to be in the stories told in cheder. about "der Rottshilds"
Eastman, Anshel and Amschel were just variants of the same name. I think or speculate that because "Amsel" means "blackbird" in German that, perhaps, it was a bit more Germanic - and probably modern - than Anschel. In any case, both of these were thought equivalent to the European name Anselm. My guess is that it was more known as Anshel in eastern Europe, and since that is the heritage of most of American Jewry and/ or certainly most of the teachers in American Orthodox Jewry, it was how it was told in school and the like. The seforim on Gittin discuss the spelling of Anshel (with shin tes or just shin) but not, with my preliminary search, with a mem.
Uncle Shimmy, of course he was German. However, I too was exposed to similar kind of stories.
Wasn't sure how the word "ha-hori" was fawning, or even complimentary -- was he calling the boy one of the original inhabitants of Seir, or was he comparing him to the "white bread" in the basket of Pharaoh's baker? So I looked it up, and apparently it means something like "noble." That's fine, but some of the seforim that I got for my bar mitzvah were inscribed to me with even more flowery Hebrew, and I ain't no aristocrat. That's just how things used to be done once.
Jackie, I assume you meant to write "never seen." I don't think it implies anything besides that he was trying to write beautifully and make it look a little special. The looping Ashkenazic cursive which Creizenach probably wrote plenty of Hebrew in would not cut it. That his handwriting still looks "childish" (don't disagree) is simply a function of the fact that he, evidently, did not possess a beautiful penmanship. Can't manage much better myself, so I don't mean anything personal.
No, actually, I have seen it before a few times--in scattered words appearing in German letters written by Gemeinde board members in Vienna, people who had otherwise fine handwriting. I had assumed that the writing came from people with limited traditional Torah education, but I don't have any proof for that suspicion.
I just meant that no one would accuse this of being a really beautiful block hand. I am not saying that cursive Ashkenazic is inherently unbeautiful, but I think you will probably agree that it is less elegant than the Sephardic (Rashi), and Creizenach may not have even been able to write like that. It could be that he just chose to write this way for aesthetic reasons.
I mean, Creizenach may have lacked many things, but writing in cursive sure as heck could not have been one of them. If the question is, could young Rothschild read it, my guess is that he absolutely could. The Frankfurt branch was still very traditional in the 1830s and I have a very hard time believing the young boy didn't read it, let alone write it.
In the 1830s many fairly acculturated Germans still *wrote* German in Hebrew letters. In the Geiger biography (by Wiener) he points out that he wrote that way to his mother all her life, although maybe that's not the best proof since his mother was old school. Still, he was born in 1810, and I don't think his family was that much more traditional than Hirsch, who also wrote German with Hebrew letters, well into the century.
However, now I am going to reverse myself. I have a copy of a postcard that Hirsch sent to his grandson in London in, I think, the 1880s. It was written in German, Hebrew letters - but in square letters. This was because of the child's youth, I think. So maybe the reason here is that Rothschild really didn't read it? In addition, Creizenach ran a modern school in Frankfurt, so maybe this really was something maskilic/ modern. This is all speculation on my part anyway.
I am not saying that cursive Ashkenazic is inherently unbeautiful, but I think you will probably agree that it is less elegant than the Sephardic (Rashi).
I decidedly disagree, and not ironically or out of ethnic pride. (I do agree if you compare a classic Sephardic rashi script with the average handwriting of today.)
Interesting schwa.
ReplyDeleteIn what, Kloynimos?
ReplyDeleteObviously, unless you have the non-schwa in mind.
ReplyDeleteWhy does Anschel = Amschel?
ReplyDeletewhat is the source of Anschel?
Reb Anschel doesn't look like the chassidisher yid he seems to be in the stories told in cheder. about "der Rottshilds"
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayer_Amschel_Rothschild
He wasnt a hasid. he was a proud observant German Jew. Are we now supposed to believe that yekkes are hasidim?
ReplyDeleteEastman, Anshel and Amschel were just variants of the same name. I think or speculate that because "Amsel" means "blackbird" in German that, perhaps, it was a bit more Germanic - and probably modern - than Anschel. In any case, both of these were thought equivalent to the European name Anselm. My guess is that it was more known as Anshel in eastern Europe, and since that is the heritage of most of American Jewry and/ or certainly most of the teachers in American Orthodox Jewry, it was how it was told in school and the like. The seforim on Gittin discuss the spelling of Anshel (with shin tes or just shin) but not, with my preliminary search, with a mem.
ReplyDeleteUncle Shimmy, of course he was German. However, I too was exposed to similar kind of stories.
Wasn't sure how the word "ha-hori" was fawning, or even complimentary -- was he calling the boy one of the original inhabitants of Seir, or was he comparing him to the "white bread" in the basket of Pharaoh's baker? So I looked it up, and apparently it means something like "noble." That's fine, but some of the seforim that I got for my bar mitzvah were inscribed to me with even more flowery Hebrew, and I ain't no aristocrat. That's just how things used to be done once.
ReplyDeleteI've seen childish block letters in adult handwriting from this era before. Does it imply a maskilic education?
ReplyDeleteJackie, I assume you meant to write "never seen." I don't think it implies anything besides that he was trying to write beautifully and make it look a little special. The looping Ashkenazic cursive which Creizenach probably wrote plenty of Hebrew in would not cut it. That his handwriting still looks "childish" (don't disagree) is simply a function of the fact that he, evidently, did not possess a beautiful penmanship. Can't manage much better myself, so I don't mean anything personal.
ReplyDeleteNo, actually, I have seen it before a few times--in scattered words appearing in German letters written by Gemeinde board members in Vienna, people who had otherwise fine handwriting. I had assumed that the writing came from people with limited traditional Torah education, but I don't have any proof for that suspicion.
ReplyDeleteI just meant that no one would accuse this of being a really beautiful block hand. I am not saying that cursive Ashkenazic is inherently unbeautiful, but I think you will probably agree that it is less elegant than the Sephardic (Rashi), and Creizenach may not have even been able to write like that. It could be that he just chose to write this way for aesthetic reasons.
ReplyDeleteI mean, Creizenach may have lacked many things, but writing in cursive sure as heck could not have been one of them. If the question is, could young Rothschild read it, my guess is that he absolutely could. The Frankfurt branch was still very traditional in the 1830s and I have a very hard time believing the young boy didn't read it, let alone write it.
In the 1830s many fairly acculturated Germans still *wrote* German in Hebrew letters. In the Geiger biography (by Wiener) he points out that he wrote that way to his mother all her life, although maybe that's not the best proof since his mother was old school. Still, he was born in 1810, and I don't think his family was that much more traditional than Hirsch, who also wrote German with Hebrew letters, well into the century.
However, now I am going to reverse myself. I have a copy of a postcard that Hirsch sent to his grandson in London in, I think, the 1880s. It was written in German, Hebrew letters - but in square letters. This was because of the child's youth, I think. So maybe the reason here is that Rothschild really didn't read it? In addition, Creizenach ran a modern school in Frankfurt, so maybe this really was something maskilic/ modern. This is all speculation on my part anyway.
I am not saying that cursive Ashkenazic is inherently unbeautiful, but I think you will probably agree that it is less elegant than the Sephardic (Rashi).
ReplyDeleteI decidedly disagree, and not ironically or out of ethnic pride. (I do agree if you compare a classic Sephardic rashi script with the average handwriting of today.)