tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post7766771366892392209..comments2024-01-21T02:58:08.208-05:00Comments on On the Main Line: Did the "Vilna Gaon's 'rebbe' the Pnei Moshe enroll in a university to study botany?Mississippi Fred MacDowellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02734864605700159687noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-28367080952475892582011-08-17T11:19:23.031-04:002011-08-17T11:19:23.031-04:00Re weird, true. But if you think about it, many no...Re weird, true. But if you think about it, many normal idiomatic expressions in English are weird. Schechter did indeed write such an article.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-45554902311745489812011-08-17T10:35:01.143-04:002011-08-17T10:35:01.143-04:00I love seeing the Bebrew titles transalted. One do...I love seeing the Bebrew titles transalted. One doesnt realize how weird these titles are until he sees them in english translation. Wasnt it Disraeli's father who got all hot and bothered over a book called "the Bones of Joseph", because it gave no clue as to the book's contents? Fair criticism if you think about it, or even if you dont think about it.<br />Think I recall seeing an article on the subject of titles by Dr. S. Shechter, but could be wrong.DFhttp://www.yahoo.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-69477029933614774972011-08-17T09:21:35.599-04:002011-08-17T09:21:35.599-04:00Keeper of the Faith is indeed interesting. His son...Keeper of the Faith is indeed interesting. His son stressed, as he did even more stridently in his lecture, that his father's great disappointment in him was his estrangement from the Talmud, his inability to understand it. He writes that other than that they were extremely close! Which sounds funny.<br /><br />Good example re journal names. Hebrew purism is cute, but not when it's a pain in the tuchus. Conversely, I absolutely loathe when English books translate Hebrew titles and don't give you the Hebrew equivalent. Yes, I can almost always figure it out, but don't waste my time.<br /><br />I actually thought that all the Lieberman, Ginzberg, etc. stuff would disappear because of the JTS, but then they let hbooks scan dozens of books and 1500 manuscripts. I dunno. <br /><br />Although it's still impossible to determine with 100% certainty if it was even him, and if it was what the motivation was, going with the narrative, it is indeed mussar.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-84068837953119195342011-08-17T06:31:03.952-04:002011-08-17T06:31:03.952-04:00Eli Ginzburg wrote the biography "Keeper of t...Eli Ginzburg wrote the biography "Keeper of the Faith" -- very interesting.<br />I strongly recommend that everyone read both of these introductions to the Yerushalmi. Just start with the language easiest to you.<br />Names of journals: A couple of years ago I was confounded by Liberman's הצופה האנגלי. I thought that this must refer to some English language version of the newspaper in a literary supplement. I went looking everywhere but couldn't find anything. He was just referring to JQR. הצופה הצרפתי is REJ.<br />I heard that this was probably deleted from Hebrewbooks because of copyright issues, not censorship.<br />I know you were being facetious about the beard, so was I.<br />I doubt that PM just wanted access. Why botany? But it's possible.<br />What's important is that PM did in fact try something, even though acc to Felix later, it was a lost cause. Those of us who have much more reason to believe that we can succeed with these methods can learn mussar.Zoharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13777354773864518000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-60806182348536875622011-08-16T09:44:33.062-04:002011-08-16T09:44:33.062-04:00Thanks Zohar, especially the reference in Ginzberg...Thanks Zohar, especially the reference in Ginzberg. I'm not sure why I didn't think of looking at it in the first place, but I guess it's because a few days ago I happened to be reading an article/ speech by Eli Ginzberg, where he mentions that he played a role in convincing his father to include a Yerushalmi introduction in English, and in fact he helped him write it. <br /><br />I am not a fan of translating the names of journals, by the way. To the extent that I'd have to spend 10 seconds thinking about what he means by "ספר השנה של החברה לספרות ישראל" that is a waste of my time. <br /><br />Interesting, he interprets Rubin as "Rabin." <br /><br />I already downloaded it from hebrewbooks. I can't catch everything, but I've got quite a few things which were removed. <br /><br />If I'm not mistaken one of the volumes was published in Livorno (which was already a big publishing place in Italy).<br /><br />Felix obviously didn't investigate it at all, for if he did he would have seen the year.<br /><br />Another thought which occurred to me is that perhaps he wanted access to a university library. Re the beard, although I was being a little facetious, note that I mentioned the students, not the professors. <br /><br />There's no doubt that he was not a ghetto yid; actually, many of the big rabbis of the time were quite cosmopolitan, in a manner of speaking. It seems like all of Europe, Western, Central and even Eastern, was their playground, moving all over the place.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-70113207890784910792011-08-16T08:27:37.906-04:002011-08-16T08:27:37.906-04:00I was just alerted to a source on page 9 of Prof F...I was just alerted to a source on page 9 of Prof Felicks' intro to Yerushalmi Shevi'it.<br /><br />There he accepts as fact that PM took the course BEFORE writing his perush, but that his teachers could not help him much to understand the nature and agriculture of the land of Israel.<br /><br />It could be that the botany professors were interested in PM's knowledge as well, even with a beard.Zoharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13777354773864518000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-11379317949192890792011-08-16T04:17:34.917-04:002011-08-16T04:17:34.917-04:00Really great post.
Aviad HaCohen is aware of the 1...Really great post.<br />Aviad HaCohen is aware of the 1923 article and discusses PM's traveling around the world. (IMHO, this also supports the University thesis. This is not a ghetto yid.) HaCohen mentions several theories to explain the travels, tsad hashave: acquisition of knowledge.<br />HaCohen quotes passages from the Yerushalmi perush where you can see that PM was in Italy, and Livorno in particular.<br />He mentions Ginzburg's comments about the botany course, but remains skeptical, like the opinion of S. himself "mei'ikarei," even though PM was cosmopolitan.<br />S.: You should see Ginzburg's Hebrew on page קכה and the footnote 34 there. He discusses the issue more in depth and ties PM's interest in manuscripts with the botany course. Always check Ginzburg's Hebrew version, which is longer, although there are things in the English which are not in the Hebrew! This was removed from Hebrewbooks apparently.Zoharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13777354773864518000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-36326793282727426642011-08-15T15:15:36.755-04:002011-08-15T15:15:36.755-04:00Rav spent 18 months among the shepards to know wha...Rav spent 18 months among the shepards to know what a blemish was. A few months in a German university, yekkes and all, couldnt have been so bad.DFhttp://www.yahoo.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-35850584093887530312011-08-15T13:14:29.483-04:002011-08-15T13:14:29.483-04:00Anon, I suppose so, because this whole thing is co...Anon, I suppose so, because this whole thing is copied from hand-written records. But it so happens that "Rubin" (Ruby) also makes sense as a German translation of Margelit. There was more than one Jew named מרגלית who, upon converting to Christianity, changed their surname to Margaritha and the like. So its possible or at least conceivable that someone with such a name would feel compelled (or maybe even required) to give some kind of Germanic name. I can see someone looking at the "Rubin" angle as a weak link, but it's not the end of the world, because it works as a translation of מרגלית (and maybe too as "Rabin").S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-79830509240834504092011-08-15T13:11:13.927-04:002011-08-15T13:11:13.927-04:00That he was close to death doesn't mean that h...That he was close to death doesn't mean that he was in bad health, and that he had already published his work on the Yerushalmi doesn't mean that he felt that his work was finished (admittedly none of this says that this man enrolled to enlarge his knowledge so that he could understand the Talmud). <br /><br />I'm not so sure these names are fairly common, especially because the father has the same name. How many people share your exact name and your father's name and come from your exact region? The additional detail about Italy (although admittedly unclear) also makes it more certain. Again, I originally thought it was just the same name, but I see that it's more than that, it's more like a 4-in-1 proof.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-61443777083151716272011-08-15T13:08:54.991-04:002011-08-15T13:08:54.991-04:00Can it be that Rubin is a form of Rabbin? Alluding...Can it be that Rubin is a form of Rabbin? Alluding to the fact that he was a Rabbi?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-59068298370351842192011-08-15T12:59:40.297-04:002011-08-15T12:59:40.297-04:00I remain skeptical.
Here he was close to death, a...I remain skeptical.<br /><br />Here he was close to death, and having already written his work on Yerushalmi. Hard to imagine that he had nothing better to do at that time than to enroll in botany courses.<br /><br />And all these names are fairly common.<br /><br />Still, you never know.Fotheringay-Phippsnoreply@blogger.com