tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post7752017854570791557..comments2024-01-21T02:58:08.208-05:00Comments on On the Main Line: Saphir's 1850s account of the Yemenite Jewish pronunciation of Hebrew.Mississippi Fred MacDowellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02734864605700159687noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-75732541215811183472010-11-12T08:51:34.994-05:002010-11-12T08:51:34.994-05:00Ah, I see. I think it's obvious that both of u...Ah, I see. I think it's obvious that both of us were misspeaking (misstyping) and meant seghol and pathah. Thanks for pointing it out.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-78829674061664843762010-11-12T06:45:46.705-05:002010-11-12T06:45:46.705-05:003rd and 4th comments, above3rd and 4th comments, aboveSteg (dos iz nit der šteg)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07694556690190505030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-27394874127365078342010-11-11T09:05:46.829-05:002010-11-11T09:05:46.829-05:00Who said otherwise?Who said otherwise?S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-91772232486593079932010-11-10T22:25:35.919-05:002010-11-10T22:25:35.919-05:00Yemenites pronounce segol and pataḥ identically (a...Yemenites pronounce <i>segol</i> and <i>pataḥ</i> identically (as /a/ or /æ/), not <i>segol</i> and <i>ḳomatz</i> (which they pronounce like many Ashkenazim, as /ɔ/ ["aw"]).Steg (dos iz nit der šteg)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07694556690190505030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-699164389683532232010-11-09T02:36:43.034-05:002010-11-09T02:36:43.034-05:00Actually I didn't have such an ambitious post ...Actually I didn't have such an ambitious post in mind; I was thinking more of a historical or social or neo-kabbalistic overview. Rav Shalem told me that the first person to insist on chei was the Tosfot Yom Tov in his commentary on Tamid. Of course, saying that "chei ha`olam" is categorically wrong leaves you with a pasuk in Daniel to explain away. (Rav Shalem's explanation was that it refers not to swearing by G-d, but by the natural workings of the universe. I'm not sure I buy it.)JXGnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-77901963982378341622010-11-08T09:11:21.572-05:002010-11-08T09:11:21.572-05:00In Even Sappir its on page נו. I guess it's a ...In Even Sappir its on page נו. I guess it's a good topic for a post, but I'm reluctant to take a stand on questions like these because both sides usually make good points, or even if only one side seems to have the best argument, in the larger picture there's a good reason to change or not to change. For example, in the geshem/ gashem debate while I favor geshem as truer to the history of the siddur, I find the insistence on geshem incompatible with no similar insistence on reverting back from numerous other changes, or writing/ saying borei peri ha-gafen, etc.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-36422567591098435702010-11-08T08:41:31.516-05:002010-11-08T08:41:31.516-05:00Regarding the chei/chai controversy, I was thoroug...Regarding the chei/chai controversy, I was thoroughly criticized by a Sefardi rav in Jerusalem (Rav Avraham D. Shalem; in a private conversation after davening--I wasn't shouted down) when, davening for the amud at a basically Ashkenazi minyan, I ended Yishtabach with "melech kel chei ha`olamim."<br /><br />He said that he wouldn't have bothered correcting me if I didn't usually take care to pronounce everything correctly, using the example of "b'safa v'rura, uvin`ima k'dosha" (rather than uvin`ima, k'dusha kulam &c.). Now, the reason that I say k'dosha is because that's how Birnbaum has it in his siddur, but whatever.<br /><br />Anyhow, he convinced me to switch over from chei to chai. He also gave me one of his sforim which has a chapter on the whole issue.<br /><br />I'd love to nominate this as a topic of a post, but at the very least, where is the issue in Even Sappir?JXGnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-54900464843426394852010-11-05T02:58:53.369-04:002010-11-05T02:58:53.369-04:00Ok, I will wait patiently. (or I'll try to a...Ok, I will wait patiently. (or I'll try to at least!)Big fannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-58601756206807546962010-11-04T04:45:10.775-04:002010-11-04T04:45:10.775-04:00You're probably right. I suppose it just didn&...You're probably right. I suppose it just didn't make sense when looking at it with my language.Nachumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11292162031685942549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-24036413893403425932010-11-03T09:22:02.295-04:002010-11-03T09:22:02.295-04:00>The v at the end of Ashkenazi Yaakov would sou...>The v at the end of Ashkenazi Yaakov would sound like a vet to Yemenites, not a waw.<br /><br />You're assuming that R. Saphir's Hebrew sounded like an American's or an Israeli's. We both know that there is a sound that is something like a /w/ and something like a /v/ that isn't precisely either. I'm betting that this is how Saphir's bet rafeh sounded. To Yemenite ears, it could have sounded more like a waw than a bhet.<br /><br />I bet I could come up with some convoluted explanation, but I think it all centers around the fact that our ears hear things differently from how they are written on paper. Unless he made this up for dramatic effect, but that's not his style, and he spent enough months in Yemen to get a pretty good grasp of how they spoke. So my guess is that these things happened.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-27903351984428071852010-11-03T02:21:54.933-04:002010-11-03T02:21:54.933-04:00I meant the following:
The v at the end of Ashken...I meant the following:<br /><br />The v at the end of Ashkenazi Yaakov would sound like a vet to Yemenites, not a waw.<br /><br />The khaf in Melekh would not sound like a het.<br /><br />Ditto for the kaf in kokhavim- it would not sound like a qaf (or gaf). Ditto for the khaf and vet in that word.Nachumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11292162031685942549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-91590578683544586102010-11-02T20:39:21.510-04:002010-11-02T20:39:21.510-04:00Yes. I'm way behind in emails though. :-(Yes. I'm way behind in emails though. :-(S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-85615408035094856042010-11-02T10:27:17.348-04:002010-11-02T10:27:17.348-04:00Nachum
>I'm afraid that none of the differ...Nachum<br /><br />>I'm afraid that none of the differences in pronunciation he gives make sense. Vet is vet, kaf is kaf, khaf is khaf.<br /><br />Huh?<br /><br />Re jim I agree with Philologos. It's an obvious Arabism, as is guf. However I think the great impression that the Yemenite pronunciation makes is that at least they actually distinguish the consonants and especially the bgdkpt. To the same degree, even though the tav rafeh is really /th/ (theta, thorn) not /s/ the distinction is better than no distinction. Not that this is such a big deal, but from a certain perspective it's to the shame of us Jews that we look our points square in the face and ignore them. Some mesorah, right? <br /><br />Simon, he details the vowels as well. I only summarized a few things I found interesting but there's so much more. The book is on hebrewbooks.org, and the discussions concerning language are in the pages 50s. It's also on Google Books, if you can view it on your continent. ;-)<br /><br />Saphir listed the confusion of vowels as one of the faults in "Sephardic" pronunciation when he opined that the Yemenite really leaves both the Sephardic and Ashkenazic in the dust. As for the essential confusion of qomatz and seghol among the Yemenites, although scholars have pointed out that such a confusion obtained in the Babylonian pointing system, I am inclined to think that the origin of this confusion is yet another Arabism. How does any Arab from Arabia (whether Saudi or Yemen) pronounce Mecca? That's right, Makka. The Arabian peninsula people pronounce /e/ like /a/ and to me this sufficiently accounts of the Yemenite pronunciation. Saphir doesn't comment about this except to note it, and I guess he wasn' so confused simply because he was already used to butchered pronunciations. He simply says that it makes it difficult to follow their reading unless you're used to it, and also that it causes them to make mistakes in pointing their texts, not using the qomatz and seghol properly.<br /><br />Anon, regardless of where he was born, he grew up in Vilna, moving to EY with his family when he was 10.<br /><br />By the way, people who are further interested might enjoy reading Rabbi Baruch Epstein's account of meeting him when he was homebound with a broken hip in Vilna for several months. (Mekor Baruch v. 4 pp. 1806-1812).<br /><br />For more biographical information - although I haven't looked at any of these - the EJ gives the following bibliography:<br /><br />J.J. Rivlin, in: Moznayim, 11 (1940), 74–81, 385–99. ADD. BIBLIOGRAPHY: A. Yaari, Sheluḥei Ereẓ Yisrael (1951), 820–22; idem, Iggerot Ereẓ Yisrael, 422–23; Em ha-Moshavot Petaḥ Tikvah (1953), 141–45; A.R. Malachi, in: Areshet, 5 (1972), 369–86; A. Morgenstern, in: Cathedra 24 (1982), 68; idem, Ge'ulah be-Derekh ha-Teva (1997), 17, 126, 128–30.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-7357173583142780372010-11-02T09:14:57.382-04:002010-11-02T09:14:57.382-04:00What a great post: I am continually in awe of the ...What a great post: I am continually in awe of the amount of research that you put into this. The segment that you have reproduced is fascinating, and "משודזע" is absolute gold. But it's interesting that, while he focuses so much on the consonants, he doesn't seem to mention the vowels. Does he speak about them elsewhere?<br /><br />I could understand somebody from the Ashkenazi tradition being enamoured of a Mizrachi's pronunciation of the consonants and utilisation of stress, but I can also imagine them being dismayed by the vowels. Correct me if I am mistaken, but there is huge overlap between the <i>qamats</i> and the <i>seghol</i> in the Yemenite pronunciation, which must have been very confusing for him. Can you comment?Simon Hollowayhttp://www.benabuya.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-48292749782387402952010-11-02T05:37:54.333-04:002010-11-02T05:37:54.333-04:00I'm afraid that none of the differences in pro...I'm afraid that none of the differences in pronunciation he gives make sense. Vet is vet, kaf is kaf, khaf is khaf.<br /><br />According to Philologos, the jimel is probably a mistaken borrowing from Arabic, along with the guf (to make up for the lack of a hard g). Examining the mouth, gimel/ghimel is a more likely pair.Nachumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11292162031685942549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-72007428829581092702010-11-02T02:50:05.801-04:002010-11-02T02:50:05.801-04:00One question about his origins. I once read -- unf...One question about his origins. I once read -- unfortunately, I can't remember where, maybe in the Jewish Encyclopedia -- that he was from Romania. However, he was definitely from Smorgon, which is in White Russia (not Lithuania).<br /><br />Is there any external biographical information about him?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com