tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post8985178116142682285..comments2024-01-21T02:58:08.208-05:00Comments on On the Main Line: Abigail Lindo's learned, innovative, pious and fascinating early 19th century Hebrew-English dictionary.Mississippi Fred MacDowellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02734864605700159687noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-45116569311217036302011-02-15T02:30:28.842-05:002011-02-15T02:30:28.842-05:00The Ashkenazi component of Italian Jewry typically...The Ashkenazi component of Italian Jewry typically had surnames that were modified from German, like Luzzatto (from Lausatz) or Morpurgo (from Marburg). The Italian Sefardim tended to keep their Spanish or Moroccan names, like Pardo or Benamozegh. But those whose family names were taken from Italian cities, such as Reggio, Ancona, Bertinoro, Modena, etc., were (as far as I know) Italkim.Dan Kleinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-30652259224165736142011-02-14T10:13:23.899-05:002011-02-14T10:13:23.899-05:00Why do you say that? Granted, I never examined his...Why do you say that? Granted, I never examined his lineage, but a lot of people assume that the Luzzattos were Sefardi, or Italki, but they were Ashkenazi - to the point that as late as Shadal's time, his personal minhag was Ashkenaz.<br /><br />However, you're right that if native Italians used it too that would be an additional piece of evidence.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-28682282979768801262011-02-14T01:49:34.573-05:002011-02-14T01:49:34.573-05:00Strictly speaking, I don't think Reggio or the...Strictly speaking, I don't think Reggio or the "hakhmei Italia" that he cites ought to be considered "Sefardi," tahor or otherwise. Most likely he (and they) belonged to that segment of Italian Jewry that identified itself as neither Ashkenazi nor Sefardi but just Italian. If so, their use and understanding of s"t would militate all the more strongly against "Sefaradi Tahor" as the original or "proper" meaning.Dan Kleinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-57259736505427709422011-02-14T00:02:05.123-05:002011-02-14T00:02:05.123-05:00JTA (my mistake), and I can assure you there was n...JTA (my mistake), and I can assure you there was no feminist ideology here. The ideology is Zionist. It was the only way for him to say "British Jews, you suck. You didn't used to, but you do now."S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-40153928064359748162011-02-13T20:36:18.617-05:002011-02-13T20:36:18.617-05:00" 'For example, how many people knew that..." 'For example, how many people knew that the first attempt to restore Hebrew as a modern, spoken language was made in England? More than half a century before the famous Eliezer Ben Yehuda, an English Jew, Abigail Lindo (1803-1848), had written a dictionary and a Hebrew discussion book which was still usable.' "<br /><br />Megged's comparison of Ben Yehuda's work with Lindo's, in the JTS piece, is manifestly absurd. Its a good example of what happens when one allows ideology to get in the way of judgment, and strains to over-inflate the accomplishments of women.DFhttp://www.yahoo.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-23357426921538189662011-02-13T13:08:05.062-05:002011-02-13T13:08:05.062-05:00All interesting thoughts! Thanks!All interesting thoughts! Thanks!Mar Gavrielnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-40389072490581511272011-02-13T11:58:40.585-05:002011-02-13T11:58:40.585-05:00I might add that Edrehi, whom I also linked to, wa...I might add that Edrehi, whom I also linked to, was Moroccan, and he did not understand it as Sefardi Tahor - unless Sy"T was not the same as S"T to him.<br /><br />Another possibility is that those of real or imagined Spanish heritage thought it meant Sefardi Tahor, while those who were not, obviously didn't. Edrehi may not have been of Spanish descent.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-20835337311158897712011-02-13T11:55:25.038-05:002011-02-13T11:55:25.038-05:00Mar G,
Just thinking out loud. You have an Italia...Mar G,<br /><br />Just thinking out loud. You have an Italian Sefardi (Reggio) and an English one (Lindo) writing that it's sofi tov. On the other hand, you have Moroccan and Turkish Sefardim (the grandfathers) saying or thinking that its Sefardi Tahor. Perhaps there is some reason why European Sephardim did not feel the need to see the acronym as pointing to their pure Sefardic heritage. <br /><br />On the other hand, as has been widely pointed out, Chacham Tzvi (and sometimes his son) used s"t," and Chacham Tzvi's Sephardic cultural exposure was in Belgrade, which should be similar to Turkey. This may only mean that he, as a careful, learned scholar, knew what the acronym really meant, while the hamon am didn't - assuming your friend's grandfathers were hamon amim. Maybe it even arose at a later date, once there was more contact with Europeans and these Sefardim felt a need to assert a high cultural heritage - to keep up - that they hadn't before.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-77909436860578449412011-02-13T11:47:36.239-05:002011-02-13T11:47:36.239-05:00I came across an interesting little JTS piece from...I came across an interesting little JTS piece from 1978 called "The Downgrading of Culture," where an Israeli novelist (Aharon Megged) got all preachy against Anglo Jewry for its lack of culture, especially Hebrew culture. He said that this portended the community's "degeneration." A quote from the bottom:<br /><br />>The cultural decline of Anglo-Jewry had been going on for more than a century, he believed. For example, how many people knew that the first attempt to restore Hebrew as a modern, spoken language was made in England? More than half a century before the famous Eliezer Ben Yehuda, an English Jew, Abigail Lindo (1803-1848), had written a dictionary and a Hebrew discussion book which was still usable.<br /><br />>The fact that so few English Jews had even heard of this woman was another sign of their cultural degeneration, Megged concluded.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-9375052931748923912011-02-12T23:10:55.224-05:002011-02-12T23:10:55.224-05:00I have another friend whose grandfather signs his ...I have another friend whose grandfather signs his name ס"ט today. He was born in Turkey, but I don't know when he started using this signature with this meaning.Mar Gavrielnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-64659090002135976302011-02-12T22:13:56.525-05:002011-02-12T22:13:56.525-05:00S. -- Haketia-speaking community of Morocco. Moved...S. -- Haketia-speaking community of Morocco. Moved to Spain some time in the mid-twentieth century (1930s? 1940s? No later than 1950s.)Mar Gavrielnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-72695240814519610602011-02-12T16:34:30.820-05:002011-02-12T16:34:30.820-05:00http://seforim.blogspot.com/2007/09/marc-shapiro-w...http://seforim.blogspot.com/2007/09/marc-shapiro-what-do-adon-olam-and-mean.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-24667359344676523812011-02-11T14:36:41.750-05:002011-02-11T14:36:41.750-05:00I think a great contribution to the discussion wou...I think a great contribution to the discussion would be to document the change, when, where, why - or if indeed it was a change, and there weren't two traditions.<br /><br />From where did your friend's grandfathers stem? I have some hunches, but I want to know this first.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-34958528088311313272011-02-11T14:23:29.548-05:002011-02-11T14:23:29.548-05:00Wow, still סיפיה טב in the 19th century -- really ...Wow, still סיפיה טב in the 19th century -- really that late! I find that interesting, since I know people alive today whose grandfathers used it in the 1930s as ספרדי טהור.Mar Gavrielnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-89044855303093042432011-02-11T09:43:26.377-05:002011-02-11T09:43:26.377-05:00Almost every 19th century Sefardic source defining...Almost every 19th century Sefardic source defining the abbreviation that I've seen - these from people with a living tradition of its usage - defines it סופי טוב or something very much like it. And, yes, I chose this random sample not so randomly. ;)<br /><br />See here<br /><br />http://onthemainline.blogspot.com/2009/09/clearing-up-50-year-old-herman-wouk.html<br /><br />and here, where I show that the alternate reading might be justified from a late 18th century source, although it is possible that it is actually a separate, unrelated acronym<br /><br />http://onthemainline.blogspot.com/2009/06/contribution-to-st-acronym-debate.html<br /><br />and also a letter from Isaac Samuel Reggio (Yashar) to Ignaz Blumenfeld, published in Otsar Nechmad 1 (1856), letter 11, page 34.<br /><br />נהגו חכמי איטליאה לכתוב אחר שמותם תיבת ס”ט ופירושם סופו טוב להיות להם לסימן יפה שסיימו בטובה<br /><br />For him it certainly was a living tradition. His father, for example, who was born in 1755 and used ס”ט.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-68640132839064386652011-02-11T03:56:07.425-05:002011-02-11T03:56:07.425-05:00Dan, you'll find a lot about this online, and ...Dan, you'll find a lot about this online, and Sefardi Tahor is clearly disproved (though if this is how people use it today, it's correct, of course).Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-35960020792231653702011-02-11T02:01:42.393-05:002011-02-11T02:01:42.393-05:00Also interesting is her entry "samekh-tet/sof...Also interesting is her entry "samekh-tet/sofi tov." Ms. Lindo and her sources were thus impliedly rejecting the view that this abbreviation stood for "Sefaradi Tahor."Dan Kleinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-34594644210616164152011-02-11T00:24:08.180-05:002011-02-11T00:24:08.180-05:00True. For the time that would be like translating ...True. For the time that would be like translating רמב"ם as Maimonides.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-41123300723233257672011-02-10T22:41:33.552-05:002011-02-10T22:41:33.552-05:00It's also interesting because the Hebrew says ...It's also interesting because the Hebrew says "Yitzchaki" while the English says "Jarchi".Joe in Australianoreply@blogger.com