tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post797081300721094512..comments2024-01-21T02:58:08.208-05:00Comments on On the Main Line: Shadal series #2 - On Hirsch's 19 Letters and a controversy about the meaning of it's Hebrew title.Mississippi Fred MacDowellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02734864605700159687noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-43605070443465951302013-05-05T08:28:38.160-04:002013-05-05T08:28:38.160-04:00Despite the fact that a pain to assemble and move,...Despite the fact that a pain to assemble and move, it's a high-quality device which offers a great benefit at under $3,000.<br /><br />Here is my blog - <a href="http://kobylkavpyzamu.cz/node/23217" rel="nofollow">visit the up coming post</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-56191272488653819522013-05-04T04:54:04.338-04:002013-05-04T04:54:04.338-04:00Receiving in shape doesn't really need to beco...Receiving in shape doesn't really need to become a terribly tricky process.<br /><br />My page: <a href="http://www.internetcafe.de/node/9416" rel="nofollow">free weights for sale</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-35235374558026709322013-04-29T07:10:23.609-04:002013-04-29T07:10:23.609-04:00A perfect approach to form up the human body in an...A perfect approach to form up the human body in an a lot easier <br />and cozy vogue!<br /><br />Stop by my web page <a href="http://www.nkpelearning.net/moodle/user/view.php?id=2236&course=1" rel="nofollow">http://www.getfitnstrong.com/adjustable-dumbbells/4-perfect-dumbbell-sets-sale/</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-47461676750612881352012-04-24T04:31:23.453-04:002012-04-24T04:31:23.453-04:00Just saw this post now (as usual great work) and t...Just saw this post now (as usual great work) and two questions/points:<br /><br />a) If it meant concealed, why wouldn't it be צפונות? <br /><br />b) The Breuer family is far from monolithic. Neither Prof. Mordechai (of the Tradition article) nor his first cousin Rav Mordechai would be considered Haredi. And in fact, I recently read a fascinating article by Rav Mordechai criticizing the approach of Dr. Yitzchak (his uncle) and by extension Rav Hirsch (his great-grandfather).Balashonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01200811858068140830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-90691294422629007822011-09-22T08:03:58.956-04:002011-09-22T08:03:58.956-04:00S, I agree. THe Artscroll biography has many usefu...S, I agree. THe Artscroll biography has many useful details of RSRH's life story and great sources, but after realizing how much of his early life was redesigned to fit into the kind of a life a gadol Artscroll would be proud of, it has lost my respect. After the glaring 3 points I made above, can I trust that they haven't completely changed what TIDE meant to RSRH? (and they have)<br /><br />I say read it with a chunk of salt.GSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-89665973888915846022011-09-21T22:59:09.835-04:002011-09-21T22:59:09.835-04:00But I never said the Igeres Teiman was a failure. ...But I never said the Igeres Teiman was a failure. Rather, that it reflects the same Maimonidian philosophy that RSRH considered overly Aristotilian, overly focused on yedi'ah and Active Intellect.<br /><br />Second, the Igeres Teiman is totally unlike the 19 Letters in function, as is Horeb totally unlike the Yad. For that matter 19 Letters is in part an introduction to Horeb (the other part being an introduction to the never-written Moriah). The works don't even play the same roles in the authors' repective oeuvres.michahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15903747662338530294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-6825213287499850132011-09-21T17:07:00.553-04:002011-09-21T17:07:00.553-04:00*the Epistle to Yemen a failure
Should say the Ep...*the Epistle to Yemen a failure<br /><br />Should say the Epistle to Yemen (19 Letters) and the Mishne Torah (Horeb)S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-9457470661708283442011-09-21T17:05:57.324-04:002011-09-21T17:05:57.324-04:00Micha
"In 19 Letters, RSRH writes negatively...Micha<br /><br />"In 19 Letters, RSRH writes negatively about the Rambam's philosophy. I therefore would have considered Rosenbloom's analysis a stretch -- why would he compare his work to something he considered a failure?"<br /><br />Who said Hirsch considered the Epistle to Yemen a failure? Or everything about the Rambam, besides for that which he criticized? That would be a stretch. I agree that Rosenbloom's thesis is built on speculative, thin reeds. But you can't knock it over with such a kasha, in my opinion. I'm not saying I agree with the thesis, but why shouldn't R. Hirsch have thought "Rambam made this and that mistake, I am called to fulfill his role in my generation without repeating those mistakes?" I just don't see the contradiction. As they say, Rosenbloom also knew that R. Hirsch had criticized the Rambam.<br /><br />GS<br /><br />The Artscroll book is without a doubt the best biography they have ever done. It is polemical and there are some things I can quibble with (e.g., it justifies his ostensible excuse for publishing the 19 Letters anonymously in a very lame way, and doesn't attempt to compare and contrast it with Hirsch's later comments about anonymity; another example is its non-treatment about Kol Nidre, kind of just slipping it in, hoping the reader doesn't realize that R. Hirsch was experimenting with moderate liturgical Reform). But it is in many ways invaluable, mostly because of the references. I think it's a good idea to read both books.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-12364422350013786162011-09-21T13:20:45.927-04:002011-09-21T13:20:45.927-04:00Rosenbloom's book provides many informative fo...Rosenbloom's book provides many informative footnotes that are completely brushed aside, and whitewashed in the Artscroll biography. You would never realize that RSRH was sent to public school by his parents even though his own grandfather faounded a cheder in his city without reading Rosenbloom's book. In addition, the Artscroll book makes it seem as if RSRH studied in yeshivos for many years. Rosenbloom shows us that RSRH learned by the Aruch L'Ner's yeshiva for about 18 months, and after that they kept in touch mostly by correspondence.<br /><br />In addition, Rosenbloom's book cites the exact complaints RSRH received before he came to Frankfurt. Facts that the Artscroll biography conveniently changes to their liking.<br /><br />RSRH is my lifelong hero, but please, let me know the truth about him!!!<br /><br />To respond to Micha Berger last point, even though RSRH was critical of Rambam, it's completely palatable that he understood his historic parallel role.GSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-75296447783737721722011-09-21T12:30:09.626-04:002011-09-21T12:30:09.626-04:00In 19 Letters, RSRH writes negatively about the Ra...In 19 Letters, RSRH writes negatively about the Rambam's philosophy. I therefore would have considered Rosenbloom's analysis a stretch -- why would he compare his work to something he considered a failure?micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-26119741778678845332011-06-29T15:19:49.855-04:002011-06-29T15:19:49.855-04:00S,
I basically agree with everything you wrote, a...S,<br /><br />I basically agree with everything you wrote, although I wouldn't use the phrase "flirtation with Reform" with a capital "r."<br /><br />Also, my comment about people not reading Rav Hirsch was not directed at Rosenbloom (whose book I have not yet read), but at charedim who treat him as a hero but who would probably feel a bit uncomfortable with him if they actually read him -- which was precisely your point.BaruchNnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-19288690920648508632011-06-28T18:31:31.612-04:002011-06-28T18:31:31.612-04:00BaruchN,
In hachi nami. But the material is there...BaruchN,<br /><br />In hachi nami. But the material is there in his biography to set him apart from the more usual gadol be-yisrael davka at this crucial time in the transition toward modernity. His flirtation with Reform was early, but so was Frankel's. <br /><br />While TIDE Judaism was not Reform Judaism, it also was not Orthodox or traditional Judaism pre- emancipation, and many of the models of the most recent gedolim were from those parts of Europe were TIDE was resisted. No wonder people see the idea of a great rabbi in that light.<br /><br />Also, zealotry isn't exclusively a sign of Orthodoxy. Isaac Mayer Wise was a zealous Reformer. Many very Orthodox rabbis were not zealous at all. <br /><br />I don't really disagree with anything you said, but I just want to note that the material is there to set him apart and make him look less great in the eyes of much of Orthodoxy, as it developed. (Try explaining the "take off your hat" teshuva in Melamed Le-hoil to someone who is unprepared for the complexities of the world.) Perhaps the Breuers are/ were sensitive about this, if it's true what people say). I could probably have saved a lot of words and simply said that to a lot of people it is absurd to say that a godol was influenced by Herder. So that needs to get played down for those people. You and I may say that's simplistic, but if history gets a vote, who does the voting but the masses? <br /><br />And Rosenbloom obviously read his writings, mistakes notwithstanding.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-64132039134000467522011-06-28T17:45:04.579-04:002011-06-28T17:45:04.579-04:00S,
My other point is that Rav Hirsch was not an o...S,<br /><br />My other point is that Rav Hirsch was not an open tolerant liberal. It is clear from his writings that he was very much a fiery zealot at times. I think it's important to note this. I don't care if we call this charedi or not, but it should be noted.BaruchNnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-63680235910157634372011-06-28T17:39:27.737-04:002011-06-28T17:39:27.737-04:00S,
The majority of Rav Hirsch's writings are ...S,<br /><br />The majority of Rav Hirsch's writings are devoted to attacking Reform Judaism and glorifying TIDE Judaism. It happens to be that we know that he instituted a choir in his shul, wore Christian-like clerical clothing, and abolished Kol Nidrei one year, but he didn't really write articles about these type of activities. It seems clear, therefore, where Rav Hirsch's heart lay.<br /><br />The fact that he was influenced by his time is a no-brainer to everyone except Rabbi Elias. (Rav Hirsch's views on the spirit of language, for example, were almost certainly influenced by Herder.) But Rav Hirsch would argue that the values he accepted from his surroundings were in fact Torah values.<br /><br />(I don't think the Breuer family has any "agenda" per se. The only agenda they have, if any, is that people who comment on Rav Hirsch should actually read his writings first. And those elements of the Breuer family that are charedi generally ignore Rav Hirsch rather than distort him.)BaruchNnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-29137631860709708572011-06-28T11:32:11.160-04:002011-06-28T11:32:11.160-04:00Dan, could be. I'm just saying how I understan...Dan, could be. I'm just saying how I understand it. Doesn't it seem a strange way of putting it if Randegger had sent him the book? Could be he only skimmed it, thus he referred to it as "lettura."<br /><br />As for the whole Breuer-Hirsch thing, I think the use of the term "Chareidi" is unhelpful (and anachronistic, as I said above). With the caveat that I know nothing about this, it seems to me that it makes some sense that the Breuer family would be concerned that he always would keep his reputation as one of the gedolei yisrael, which entails portraying him less as a moderate reformer (or early experimenter, if you like) influenced by Kant and Hegel, and more as a zealous fighter for and promoter of Torah, who repaired the breeches. In fact both are true, but given the way things are, most people can't digest this. Since the paramount concern is that he remain a godol, perhaps this is why a book such as Rosenbloom's would be seen as so threatening to that image.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-66288684783114695222011-06-28T10:56:21.308-04:002011-06-28T10:56:21.308-04:00Bravo, amico mio, molte grazie!
I'm still not...Bravo, amico mio, molte grazie!<br /><br />I'm still not convinced that Shadal was reacting only to "excerpts" of the Letters. He thanks his friend Randegger for procuring him a "lettura" of the Letters, meaning a "reading" of them, which may well mean that Randegger had sent him the whole book. He could have; Shadal's letter is dated Jan. 29, 1837, and the book was printed in 1836.<br /><br />While it may be true that some elements of the Breuer family go "to great lengths to rewrite Hirsch in the Breuer image," the family is not monolithic, and I doubt that Mordechai Breuer had such an agenda. His harsh critique of Rosenbloom's book does not seem to be based on an attempt to paint Hirsch as a Charedi.Dan Kleinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-78611266932495590812011-06-28T08:47:58.465-04:002011-06-28T08:47:58.465-04:00In a sense remaining Orthodox altogether was an ac...In a sense remaining Orthodox altogether was an act of "Chareidism" in Germany in the 19th century. Maybe Hirsch attacked the Hildesheimer Seminary, but Hildesheimer (also) attacked Frankel, and to a lot of contemporaries Frankel was Orthodox, although maybe not looking at it in hindsight. (Pretty sad if we're using attacks on the left as a measure of being Chareidi.) What makes it interesting is that nearly all those who remained Orthodox did not eschew secular culture; in fact, they all had changed their language, clothes and dress.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-68501858482047885212011-06-28T03:45:42.506-04:002011-06-28T03:45:42.506-04:00Rav Hirsch also had his charedi side. Or have we f...Rav Hirsch also had his charedi side. Or have we forgotten his attacks on the Hildersheimer Seminary? I love Rav Hirsch, but I'm not so certain he was less charedi than many of his descendants -- like Isaac Breuer, for example, over whose desk hung a portrait of Kant. <br /><br />(I think it is accurate, however, to state that Rav Hirsch's son-in-law, Rav Shlomo Breuer, was far less interested in secular knowledge than his father-in-law.)BaruchNnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-46993736472147689482011-06-28T00:38:27.349-04:002011-06-28T00:38:27.349-04:00Really amazing post. The 19 Letter was originally...Really amazing post. The 19 Letter was originally written as a "teaser" for Chorev and the never published Moriah. I always thought that "tzafun" was a reference to the fact that much of the seeds of Chorev were hidden in the 19 Letters.Neil Harrishttp://uberdox.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-43272658021379121532011-06-27T21:10:57.480-04:002011-06-27T21:10:57.480-04:00What does the letter say, in which Hirsch says the...What does the letter say, in which Hirsch says the meaning is "concealed"? Unless the letter is extremely emphatic, it seems highly probable that Hirsch meant both meanings, exactly as you suggest. He had to have known people would read both meanings into the book, after all, they are both equally plausible.<br />[Related: The Tzafnas Paneach ("Revealer of the Hidden") of the Rogatchover was titles such because the author was a Joseph (like the original Joseph) and his last name was Rozin ("hidden"). Heard from R' Gavriel Bollagz'l, an alter mirrer.]DFhttp://www.yahoo.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-45575253307033699752011-06-27T20:23:51.357-04:002011-06-27T20:23:51.357-04:00Rab Breuer's comment about the dot reminds me ...Rab Breuer's comment about the dot reminds me of a story of the Chafetz Chaim at age 6 year in cheder. According to the story, one of the talmidim recited the opening of the Torah - breishis bara ... Hashem". When his rebbe demanded an explanation, the talmid said that there are 2 "yiddin" to which the young Chafetz Chaim explained - when the yiddin are next to each other it's Hashem, but when they're on top of one another its sof posuk.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-33157931744770041932011-06-27T14:42:05.490-04:002011-06-27T14:42:05.490-04:00There's an extra apostrophe in the post's ...There's an extra apostrophe in the post's title. Just thought you'd want to know.<br /><br />Very interesting post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-60797244034499771072011-06-27T14:34:36.361-04:002011-06-27T14:34:36.361-04:00Maybe nikud is a REALLY late invention after all! ...Maybe nikud is a REALLY late invention after all! :)Yeshivamannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-38299015330426665722011-06-27T12:54:13.713-04:002011-06-27T12:54:13.713-04:00Cute - or shall I say, niedlich.Cute - or shall I say, niedlich.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-58776385382594843922011-06-27T12:51:42.533-04:002011-06-27T12:51:42.533-04:00People notice that Rabbiner Hirsch punned about Ig...People notice that Rabbiner Hirsch punned about Iggeraus Tzofaun and Tzofun in his epochal work, but people don't understand that in the title <i>Neunzehn Briefe über Judenthum</i>, he alludes to his concept of German Judaism, or, Überjudenthum.Important Pointnoreply@blogger.com