tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post3704258606136070157..comments2024-01-21T02:58:08.208-05:00Comments on On the Main Line: Adam Hakohen, the Chafetz Chaim and the appropriateness of Lithuanian bochurim writing poetry inspired by Medusa and Minerva.Mississippi Fred MacDowellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02734864605700159687noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-15875315529356101122010-03-23T02:12:51.029-04:002010-03-23T02:12:51.029-04:00In Shadal's comment on Gen. 30:39, he refers a...In Shadal's comment on Gen. 30:39, he refers at length to Blondel's book "in English" concerning the so-called "power of suggestion" and Jacob's sheep. James Augustus Blondel was a French-born physician living in England. The book that Shadal referred to was probably one that Blondel wrote in 1729, which was translated into French and other languages. Because Shadal so rarely makes mention of English sources, my guess is that in this case he saw the French translation.<br /><br />In addition to the reasons cited above for the decline of Hebrew poetry, can anyone name a day school or yeshiva that actually teaches its students to write poems in Hebrew? Most graduates of such schools can barely string a Hebrew sentence together, never mind composing verse.Dan Kleinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-55607005737100480782010-03-22T13:08:49.959-04:002010-03-22T13:08:49.959-04:00See R. Yosef Mashash's lament about the precip...See R. Yosef Mashash's lament about the precipitous recent decline of (Sephardic) Jewish poetry, in his פרשת תולדות השיר, in his נר מצוה<br /><br />ובכל דור ודור צצו ופרחו משוררים חדשים עד הדור הזה ועד בכלל. ואך זה כשני דורות ועוד. ירדה החכמה הזאת פלאים אצל המשוררים הספרדים. כי נמצאו שיריהם משוללים מהחן והיופי ומכל רעיון. זולת איזה שירים מעטים ונער יכתבם. אשר ריח השיר מרחפת עליהם.<br /><br />ואך בדור הזה ירדה עוד פלאי פלאים ...<br /><br />http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=7558&pgnum=136Yitzhakhttp://bdld.infonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-85566769021281881632010-03-22T08:58:09.316-04:002010-03-22T08:58:09.316-04:00Good point about the proliferation of Herew detrac...Good point about the proliferation of Herew detracting from the mystique of writing poetry in Hebrew.<br />Another reason yeshiva students dont write it, perhaps, is because they're simply not as talented. Back then the best and the brightest (with exceptions) went to yeshivah, not any more today.<br />Which English book are you referring to? I remember he cites Blondel in the letter about Jacob's sheep.<br /><br />DFAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-65121183386763686762010-03-21T22:51:54.920-04:002010-03-21T22:51:54.920-04:00I suspect that that's partly why the official ...I suspect that that's partly why the official line is scorn, that Haskalah is really dead, that the old one were at least talented, even if they were horribly krum, etc. The second part of it is Israel. Hebrew expertise can't have the mystique it had 150 years ago, when half the world's Jews think in Hebrew, even if obviously most of them aren't talented or original writers in the language.<br /><br />But your reasons may becorrect too. Poetry is still alive, but is not as prestigious a genre of literature (or so it seems). Interestingly, Shadal considered "knowing a language" to mean "can compose poetry in that language," and by that standard he considered himself to know, besides obviously Hebrew and Italian, French, German, Latin, Aramaic and Syriac. However he did not "know Arabic" because he didn't consider himself competent to write verse in Arabic. I'm not clear if he knew English, in the regular sense of the term. In one of his youthful letters he cites an English book, but it may have been available in French. But clearly he couldn't write English verse. Thought and spoken like a man born in 1800.<br /><br />Re your point about Ginsberg et al. Obviously that's personal opinion. Poetry needs to evolve just like music and art. People can't very well keep plugging away in the exact same form century after century. I suspect that because of the completely twisted relationship we have with Hebrew, ie, somehow demanding grammatical perfection, people just don't feel like writing regular Hebrew verse according to the rules is really artistic. Finally, of course there is plenty of Hebrew poetry. It's just not a favored past time of yeshivaleit.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-22200094144870915332010-03-21T22:32:03.893-04:002010-03-21T22:32:03.893-04:00On the subject of poetry, its intressante. Haskala...On the subject of poetry, its intressante. Haskalah is as alive today as it was in the 19th century, maybe more so. But you know what's completely gone? Poetry. We have blogs dedicated to seforim and to biblical criticsim and to talmudic criticism and to excessive chumrahs - all the same tropes they talked about in the good old days. But I sure dont see a lot of blogs dedicated to poetry.<br /><br />As a tentative theory, so that I can get credit for it when someone decides to write a paper on this phenomena [cite me as "DF", they know who I am] I suggest the following:<br /><br />1) We Jews are simply mimicing the general disappearance of poetry in society. Now, as to why THAT is happening, I think it has to do with the watering down of standards. When garbage writers like Alan Ginsberg or Maya Angelou are considered "poets", it makes people capable of real poetry decide to focus their efforts elsewhere. So gone are the Frosts and even the Sandburgs. And, consequently, gone are the Bialiks and the Hakohens.<br /><br />2) We are a more cynical generation, and cynical men dont write poetry.<br /><br />3) Alternatively, our maskillim dont know Hebrew quite well enough. [I have my doubts as to this postulate. But I think the first postulate is emes l-amito shel torah, and maybe the second is true, too.]<br /><br />DFAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-3752386777114717922010-03-21T20:27:50.077-04:002010-03-21T20:27:50.077-04:00Many yeshivos were known by the town they were in,...Many yeshivos were known by the town they were in, even thought they also had an official name. Also, MOAG's own text is not testimony about the 1920s such that you can parse a term in it in R. Kamenetzky's own word. It was written in the 1990s! ;-)S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-6006099793448627352010-03-21T20:14:54.595-04:002010-03-21T20:14:54.595-04:00A combination of the 2 posts. In this post, the ex...A combination of the 2 posts. In this post, the excerpt from MOAG speaks of "a Radin talmid" not a CC talmid.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-82483509511399500732010-03-21T18:00:20.020-04:002010-03-21T18:00:20.020-04:00Haha. For them, it was the same thing, or worse. I...Haha. For them, it was the same thing, or worse. In terms of it being a positive thing, it all depends on one's perspective. From my perspective, Adam Hakohen wasn't bad at all. On the other hand, it's almost certain that had young Yisrael Meirl become a Hebrew poet he'd have never written the Mishnah Berurah. And where would we be then?<br /><br />Interesting about your cousin (do you mind emailing me? As you're anon, I'd like to know more). I haven't been able to find a whole lot info about Shealtiel Eisig Graeber. (Was your grandfather Shealtiel Yitzchak, too?)S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-71009524832044995872010-03-21T17:47:23.901-04:002010-03-21T17:47:23.901-04:00The Yated's version makes it seem like these p...The Yated's version makes it seem like these people were kidnapped into the Russian army. It definitely wasn't a positive thing, but c'mon. <br /><br />As an aside, Igros Shadal was published by Isaac Graber, a cousin to my grandfather whose name was also Isaac Graber.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-48937294464601472412010-03-21T17:05:29.049-04:002010-03-21T17:05:29.049-04:00Is this comment meant for the other post, with the...Is this comment meant for the other post, with the receipt? <br /><br />I don't really see it as a contradiction.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-55471459094701140592010-03-21T16:59:35.937-04:002010-03-21T16:59:35.937-04:00Seems from MOAG that the Yeshiba was known as Radi...Seems from MOAG that the Yeshiba was known as Radin, not Chafetz Chaim in the 20's?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com