tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post3532883751208902717..comments2024-01-21T02:58:08.208-05:00Comments on On the Main Line: The dawning of davening. Do we know where the word comes from? No, but it's fun to make educated and uneducated guesses.Mississippi Fred MacDowellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02734864605700159687noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-89096621525092844282013-04-26T15:12:29.561-04:002013-04-26T15:12:29.561-04:00I know this website provides quality dependent
ar...I know this website provides quality dependent <br />articles and additional data, is there any other web page which gives <br />such stuff in quality?<br /><br />Also visit my homepage ... <a href="http://www.badmemory.org/memory/why-a-journal-can-help-your-memory/" rel="nofollow">ford Ranger Forum</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-40022682200480575832013-04-13T17:36:29.709-04:002013-04-13T17:36:29.709-04:00I have heard this theory from Reb Zalman Schachter...I have heard this theory from Reb Zalman Schachter-Shalomi.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-47599261813055883682011-02-09T15:12:05.447-05:002011-02-09T15:12:05.447-05:00MDJ -- I have responded to you by personal email.
...MDJ -- I have responded to you by personal email.<br /><br />S. -- see Eldar's book on the <i>Hidāyat al-Qāri</i>, in the series אסופות ומבואות בלשון.Mar Gavrielnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-83246211172146472842011-02-09T14:21:13.000-05:002011-02-09T14:21:13.000-05:00Mar,
Where have you seen reference to this d...Mar,<br /> Where have you seen reference to this dot? I have never heard of it, and looking on line at the one instance of "vhishtachavu" that I can think of (end of Ps. 99) I see no dot.MDJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-7996574123893690572011-02-09T00:59:55.607-05:002011-02-09T00:59:55.607-05:00Prayer - Tefilot - as we know it, was instituted i...Prayer - Tefilot - as we know it, was instituted in place of korbanot, the daily sacrifices in the Temple (one of which - the mid-day one - was called Mincha - to which you refer simply as Gift). Perhaps all prayer was then called after the mid-day Korban.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-84034599084192983772011-02-08T21:42:31.044-05:002011-02-08T21:42:31.044-05:00Its the davenin of the Age of AquariusIts the davenin of the Age of AquariusXnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-9697777624972064562011-02-08T21:41:22.624-05:002011-02-08T21:41:22.624-05:00D'AvignonD'AvignonXnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-13932389825943518822011-02-08T19:30:39.594-05:002011-02-08T19:30:39.594-05:00I remember seeing in 1 of the Seforim of the Bnie ...I remember seeing in 1 of the Seforim of the Bnie Yisoscher that the word Davenen comes from AvinenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-15018783886149013722011-02-08T15:11:21.451-05:002011-02-08T15:11:21.451-05:00Nachum: Codices have been the usual form of books ...Nachum: Codices have been the usual form of books since the early Middle Ages. Scrolls were certainly long out of fashion by the 1500s, which (according to S) is the likely origin-period of the word "davenen". <br /><br />The earliest prayer books we have, e.g. from the Geniza, are codices, perhaps single-section pamphlets like the earliest haggadah reprinted in Goldschmidt's haggadah, but definitely folded and sewn paper.thanbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06197564008203120013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-40362940052952283812011-02-08T09:52:45.091-05:002011-02-08T09:52:45.091-05:00MDJ -- yes. The [w] pronunciation was used in spec...MDJ -- yes. The [w] pronunciation was used in special phonological circumstances, and indicated in the Keter by a dot in the letter. Note how the Keter writes "vihishtaḥawu". (I'll look for an image b"n.) That dot marks the unusual pronunciation; the default one was [v].<br /><br />In Babylonia, on the other hand, vav was always [w].Mar Gavrielnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-36841710705795992852011-02-08T00:44:18.297-05:002011-02-08T00:44:18.297-05:00I was at that speech of R' Steinsaltz and I do...I was at that speech of R' Steinsaltz and I don't think he was entirely serious, as I wrote above. For one, I think the use of the word predates widespread use of bound prayer books.Nachumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11292162031685942549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-26967205695210587272011-02-07T23:10:44.277-05:002011-02-07T23:10:44.277-05:00Ilan Eldar has translated many parts of the Hidāya...Ilan Eldar has translated many parts of the Hidāyat al-Qāri. Much of it is in his book. The part relevant to this, on the pronunciation of letters, in not in the book, but is in an article he published in Leshonenu in 1981. REally all it says is that vav, like pay, bet and mem, are prounounced fromteh lips. In a footnote, he says that the tiberians used both pronunciations based on other comments in the Hidāyat al-Qāri. It was usually [v], but in some phonological circumstances, esp. when preceded or followed by and [oo] vowel, it was [w]. E.g., the name Puvah would have been Pu'wah. Geoffrey Khan follows Eldar in this in his papers on Tiberian phonology, and also cites the Hilufim of bA and bN, which I did not have a chance to check todayMDJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-13780977019790051252011-02-07T19:59:48.526-05:002011-02-07T19:59:48.526-05:00Anon, know one really knows, but the earliest clea...Anon, know one really knows, but the earliest clear reference to it is in the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuzari" rel="nofollow">Kuzari</a>, which is about 900 years old. Since the author didn't know why - he gave two reasons - it is apparent that it is even older than that. The reasons he gave were the one which he said was what was commonly believed, in order to "arouse heat" in the body. Of course that's not really a reason. The reason the author himself conjectures was that at an earlier time people had to share books, and they would sway back and forth to enable each other to have a look and read.<br /><br />Other reasons have been given, but all long, long after the fact. In short, it's an old practice, at least 1000 years or more. It's pretty easy to get socialized into doing it, especially if you started at a young age. Once you do it its hard not to.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-19305400469011612402011-02-07T18:24:22.955-05:002011-02-07T18:24:22.955-05:00As a Christian who has davened at the Western Wall...As a Christian who has davened at the Western Wall, I would like to know the origin of the knee bending, head bobbing, camel riding motions used when davening.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-55229824166990531842011-02-07T17:54:35.547-05:002011-02-07T17:54:35.547-05:00The idea that it came from French is truly strange...The idea that it came from French is truly strange. What was the French influence on east European Jews in the 16th century? Western and Central European Jews said "orenen," not "davenen." <br /><br />Milhouse, why is that the first place to look? Did it arise in an Orthodox or Catholic area? Seems that should be answered before we assume that "divine" takes priority, and we would still have to explain the vowel shifts.<br /><br />And, although I admittedly think it's weak, if the first to discuss it thought it was from Aramaic, why isn't that the first place to look?S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-69045158105405329642011-02-07T17:11:57.308-05:002011-02-07T17:11:57.308-05:00Isn't the relationship to "divine" b...Isn't the relationship to "divine" blindingly obvious? I mean, sure, the obvious etymology is not always the correct one, but shouldn't this be the <i>first</i> place to look?Milhousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14350874508580081286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-26638622853354109172011-02-07T10:06:07.874-05:002011-02-07T10:06:07.874-05:00>S.: It's farfetched (*) to suggest that Je...>S.: It's farfetched (*) to suggest that Jews would translate "mincha" as "gift" and then tell these early Latvians that they are about to offer a gift. It's far more likely that they simply used whatever the local word for a prayer service was. Wouldn't these Latvians themselves have used the official Church terminology to describe their own prayer services? If so, it explains why they'd have used a Latin word and why Jews would have echoed it.<br /><br />I didn't say it isn't. Or, more accurately, I didn't say someone else can't find it farfetched. My position is that we don't really know, and what one finds convincing one finds farfetched. Of course some are likelier than others. The reason why I happen to think that the 'offering' scenario is somewhat plausible is because I have often found that Jews translated Hebrew words hyperliterally in ways in which we wouldn't think to do. It is conceivable that the thought of using the *same* word used in the Church for prayer was repugnant to these Jews (and don't say, what about benschen - that word didn't originate in eastern European Yiddish). <br /><br />Shimon S,<br /><br />I have no idea why my comment didn't post, but I had written that Ilan Eldar published what appears to be a critical edition and translation (<a href="http://simania.co.il/bookdetails.php?item_id=376394" rel="nofollow">link</a>.<br /><br />Anshl, fair enough!S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-45638531242136932542011-02-07T10:01:21.801-05:002011-02-07T10:01:21.801-05:00R. Steinsaltz is most convinced by the theory that...R. Steinsaltz is most convinced by the theory that daven comes from "daf" [Hebrew for 'page'] (the v in daven and the f are interchanged, as is often the case in East European languages with similar sounding syllables). Daven refers to the pages of one's siddur that one turns. R. Steinsaltz was speaking about how being "religious" is not the same as being "observant" - and whereas an observant Jew davens three times a time (that is, turns the pages), he doesn't necessarily "pray". [Heard at a lecture at the Great Synagogue, Jerusalem, 2 February 2011.]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-44341257939521918472011-02-07T09:25:31.273-05:002011-02-07T09:25:31.273-05:00Yekkishe Bekishe and Dan Klein are correct. It com...Yekkishe Bekishe and Dan Klein are correct. It comes from the French, "l'office divine"--meaning "worship."Rabbi Jonathan Gerardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14427882460402622018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-27048039532513107972011-02-07T07:56:25.058-05:002011-02-07T07:56:25.058-05:00And what is the connection to 'dovdevan' (...And what is the connection to 'dovdevan' (or is that a BenYehuda word?)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-60036331577110290302011-02-07T04:46:32.092-05:002011-02-07T04:46:32.092-05:00Ok. Not "recent" but "serious"...Ok. Not "recent" but "serious"...anshlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-56455281282127289892011-02-07T00:59:25.565-05:002011-02-07T00:59:25.565-05:00S.: It's farfetched (*) to suggest that Jews w...S.: It's farfetched (*) to suggest that Jews would translate "mincha" as "gift" and then tell these early Latvians that they are about to offer a gift. It's far more likely that they simply used whatever the local word for a prayer service was. Wouldn't these Latvians themselves have used the official Church terminology to describe their own prayer services? If so, it explains why they'd have used a Latin word and why Jews would have echoed it.<br /><br /><br />(*) A Yiddish word presumably constructed from the English word "fetch", a double or apparition, in the sense that an argument is no more convincing than a mirage.Joe in Australianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-65195070832822912642011-02-06T17:19:39.370-05:002011-02-06T17:19:39.370-05:00Recent isn't necessarily better or more convin...Recent isn't necessarily better or more convincing. Why is doenen more convincing than davana? Why does the word first appear in a Slavic, rather than Germanic context? I think no one knows, some are more likely than others is the most reasonable position.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-91087374223968331422011-02-06T17:07:54.379-05:002011-02-06T17:07:54.379-05:00In Yivo and standard Yiddish the word is spelled d...In Yivo and standard Yiddish the word is spelled davenen or davnen (and not davinen) : <br /><br />דאַ'װענ|ען/<br />דאַװנ|ען<br /><br />About the etymology, it would be better to rely on recent Yiddish linguists and not to retain fantasmatic theories. Take e.g. D. Katz : ".. many unconvincing etymologies have been proposed... One of the more plausible is Kosover's..., a middle High German etymon, doenen 'sing', backed up by Yiddish manuscript evidence" (1991. A Late Twentieth Century Case of Katoves).anshlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12600498.post-28873372521215126752011-02-06T16:21:57.745-05:002011-02-06T16:21:57.745-05:00Yes, but maybe it has the relevant passage in Hebr...Yes, but maybe it has the relevant passage in Hebrew.<br /><br />I think Ilan Eldar published a critical edition, see <a href="http://simania.co.il/bookdetails.php?item_id=376394" rel="nofollow">here</a>.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.com